1 part + alignment and GD&T issues

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 1 part + alignment and GD&T issues

    I don't know the best way to approach this with you guys so I'll just start and change course as necessary.

    What I have is a part that has multiple GD&T issues. I'm no guru in that dept. but I'm usually not as baffled as to what they want as I am on this part. There's 5 different issues and I'd like to run 'em by ya one at a time.

    But first, the alignment part of our program. I started out doing an interative alignment to this part just like I usually do, without problems, but on this part after I've done the manual Iterative & the DCC interative, I do a location for the B Datum hole which should be in this case X & Z equalling zero. However on this part X=0 but Z=.159 off zero. It's my understanding that if the part is aligned properly the B datum, the origin, should be zero. Why on this part isn't that the case? Can you see where I've done something wrong that I just can't find??? I beg of you your help.
    In the meantime I've done a regular A,B,C alignment and when I do a location on the B with that setup, everything is at zero like it should be.....
    I'm going to try and post pics on here but if you want to play with the program / CAD file I'd be happy to send it to you for testing......

    Once this problem is resolved then I'd like to go over the GD&T stuff.......I guess you can think of this as my version of the 12 days of Christmas.

    Any and all help greatly appreicated....even if you confuse me further

    Code:
            [SIZE="1"] COMMENT/OPER,NO,==========================
                               ,WARNING, Going to DCC mode now!
                               ,==================================
                               , 
                MODE/DCC
                MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,2478.019,706.493,747.991
    A1-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2450.865,616.816,675.938,0,1,0
                ACTL/2450.883,616.783,675.922,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2450.865,616.816,675.938,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A2-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2486.853,616.816,696.272,0,1,0
                ACTL/2486.86,616.772,696.274,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2486.853,616.816,696.272,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A3-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2528.501,616.816,673.86,0,1,0
                ACTL/2528.519,616.786,673.883,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2528.501,616.816,673.86,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A4-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2517.833,616.816,690.081,0,1,0
                ACTL/2517.842,616.617,690.099,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2517.833,616.816,690.081,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A5-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2495.595,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                ACTL/2495.613,616.786,675.388,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2495.595,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A6-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2469.337,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                ACTL/2469.355,616.81,675.375,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2469.337,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    A7-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2453.632,616.816,691.588,0,1,0
                ACTL/2453.641,616.697,691.573,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                TARG/2453.632,616.816,691.588,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    -A-PLN-D   =FEAT/PLANE,RECT,TRIANGLE
                THEO/2486.088,616.816,682.643,0,1,0
                ACTL/2486.102,616.75,682.645,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                CONSTR/PLANE,BF,A1-D,A2-D,A3-D,A4-D,A5-D,A6-D,A7-D,,
                OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
                FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
    B1-D       =AUTO/CIRCLE,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES,SHOWHITS = NO
                THEO/2474.79,616.816,688.95,0,1,0,6.25
                ACTL/2474.801,616.691,689.079,-0.0042635,0.9999788,0.004921,6.366
                TARG/2474.79,616.816,688.95,0,1,0
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,IN,CIRCULAR,MAX_INSC,ONERROR = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10,RMEAS = None,None,None,$
                READ POS = NO,FIND HOLE = NO,REMEASURE = NO,$
                NUMHITS = 5,INIT = 3,PERM = 3,SPACER = 1,PITCH = 0,$
                START ANG = 0,END ANG = 0,DEPTH = 0.8,$
                ANGLE VEC = -1,0,0
    C2-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2453.822,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                ACTL/2453.829,618.071,697.134,0.0003064,0.0045321,-0.9999897
                TARG/2453.822,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    C3-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                THEO/2517.866,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                ACTL/2517.875,618.031,697.153,0.0003064,0.0045321,-0.9999897
                TARG/2517.866,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
    LIN1-D     =FEAT/LINE,RECT,UNBND
                THEO/2453.822,618.18,697.17,1,0,0
                ACTL/2453.822,618.18,697.162,0.9999999,0,0.0005165
                CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,C2-D,C3-D,,
                OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
                FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
    DCC1       =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:MANUAL, LIST= YES
                ALIGNMENT/ITERATE
                  PNT TARGET RAD = 0.5, START LABEL = , FIXTURE TOL = 0.1, ERROR LABEL = 
                  MEAS ALL FEAT = ALWAYS ,MAX ITERATIONS = 99 ,LEVEL AXIS=YAXIS ,ROTATE AXIS=ZAXIS ,ORIGIN AXIS=XAXIS
                LEVEL = A1-D,A2-D,A3-D,A4-D,A5-D,A6-D,A7-D,,
                ROTATE = C2-D,C3-D,,
                ORIGIN = B1-D,,
                ALIGNMENT/END
    PART       =LABEL/
                COMMENT/REPT,==========================
                            ,Location of -B- Datum
                            ,X=2474.790 
                            ,Y=616.816
                            ,Z=688.950
                            ,D=6.250
                            , 
    DIM LOC1= LOCATION OF CIRCLE B1-D  SD=0.000  UNITS=MM ,$
    GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
    AX    MEAS      NOMINAL     +TOL       -TOL        DEV      OUTTOL   
    X    2474.790   2474.790      0.050      0.050      0.000      0.000 ----#----
    Z     689.115    688.950      0.050      0.050      0.165      0.115 -------->
    D       6.366      6.250      0.150      0.030      0.116      0.000 -------#-
    END OF DIMENSION LOC1[/SIZE]
    Last edited by TCeckels; 03-28-2008, 12:15 PM.
    sigpic
    Heading for the Badlands...


    Mitutoyo Bright Apex 916 / Renishaw PH10M / TP20 Extended Force Probe / PC-DMIS 3.7MR2

  • #2
    Do the same thing you just did, but use a regular alignment. Then report out your -B- again it should be right on. I do a manual iterative alignment (not to the datums), a dcc iterative alignment (not to the datums), and then an alignment to the datums (ABC_ALIGN1), and then another alignment to the dtaums (ABC_ALIGN). At the end you will then see Datum -B- will be 0,0. Generally not before that when using iterative alignments to initially set up your part. More tommorow I gotta fill a quota for america.
    sigpic

    James Mannes

    Comment


    • #3
      You only have ONE axis set to that B1-D, you are using 'C' features in the rotate. The iterative alignment will LEVEL and ORIGIN an axis to the level features, ROTATE and ORIGIN an axis to the rotate features and SET the last axis to the origin feature. This has pissed me off for a long time. I have tried several thing to get a single (hole) to be the origin for TWO axis in an iterative alignment when that single feature was NOT part of the rotate and I could NOT get it to work. The only way I could get it to work was to do an EXTRA, 3-2-1 alignment after the iterative alignment, setting the 2 axis to the require feature. No level, no rotate, just set 2 axis origin to the feature.
      sigpic
      Originally posted by AndersI
      I've got one from September 2006 (bug ticket) which has finally been fixed in 2013.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am not 100% sure, but at one point I was told that you could not anlayze VC's on datums with anything earlier than V4.0.

        The GD&T in >V4.1 is easy to do on that part.

        Be careful: the FCF's that are attached in the pictures indicate that you have simultaneous requirements (see applicable standard)! I have no idea whether you can analyze those before V4, but in >V4.1 I know you can. I do it all the time.


        Jan.
        ***************************
        PC-DMIS/NC 2010MR3; 15 December 2010; running on 18 machine tools.
        Romer Infinite; PC-DMIS 2010 MR3; 15 December 2010.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JamesMannes View Post
          Do the same thing you just did, but use a regular alignment. Then report out your -B- again it should be right on. I do a manual iterative alignment (not to the datums), a dcc iterative alignment (not to the datums), and then an alignment to the datums (ABC_ALIGN1), and then another alignment to the dtaums (ABC_ALIGN). At the end you will then see Datum -B- will be 0,0. Generally not before that when using iterative alignments to initially set up your part. More tommorow I gotta fill a quota for america.
          Am I understanding you, that you do 4 alignments?? Is that just for a part like this one or do you do that all the time? With my limited skills the question I gotta ask is why?? What is the advantage to using the Iterative if you've gotta overwrite it with something else?? I gotta be missing something here, I know.......

          Tom
          sigpic
          Heading for the Badlands...


          Mitutoyo Bright Apex 916 / Renishaw PH10M / TP20 Extended Force Probe / PC-DMIS 3.7MR2

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Matthew D. Hoedeman View Post
            You only have ONE axis set to that B1-D, you are using 'C' features in the rotate. The iterative alignment will LEVEL and ORIGIN an axis to the level features, ROTATE and ORIGIN an axis to the rotate features and SET the last axis to the origin feature. This has pissed me off for a long time. I have tried several thing to get a single (hole) to be the origin for TWO axis in an iterative alignment when that single feature was NOT part of the rotate and I could NOT get it to work. The only way I could get it to work was to do an EXTRA, 3-2-1 alignment after the iterative alignment, setting the 2 axis to the require feature. No level, no rotate, just set 2 axis origin to the feature.
            Hot dog, I understand what you're saying! Looking back at some old programs that I did iterative alignments on that didn't have this problem and in all of them the origin (B) was part of the rotation This is the first time I've had one where it's not.......just for yucks (Research) I did another alignment, but this time I used just one of the two C points and then used the hole for the other and when I finished that alignment B was 0 / 0....obviously I guess because I used the hole as part of the rotate giving it power over two axii, correct?? Of couse the line is at a goofy angle so it's not useable I assume?

            So, would you say this is another Wilcox "feature" or is it working the way it should and we should have to do some tweaking in cases like this one??



            Tom
            sigpic
            Heading for the Badlands...


            Mitutoyo Bright Apex 916 / Renishaw PH10M / TP20 Extended Force Probe / PC-DMIS 3.7MR2

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TCeckels View Post
              Am I understanding you, that you do 4 alignments?? Is that just for a part like this one or do you do that all the time? With my limited skills the question I gotta ask is why?? What is the advantage to using the Iterative if you've gotta overwrite it with something else?? I gotta be missing something here, I know.......

              Tom
              The manual one to line up the part and mesh the part with CAD.

              The DCC one to refine what I just did in the manual alignment.

              One to the datum structure on the blueprint in DCC to get to the print datum structure.

              The last one to get rid of the stuff you are seeing.

              yes, I do this on all parts all the time.

              I was the presenter at a User Group Meeting about 2.5 years ago explaining to everyone why I have gone to 2 alignments to the blueprint datum structure.

              It all boils down to the geometric features that your using to make your blueprint datum alignment. When i went to this format it was because of a rather difficult alignment that I had trouble with and by creating the second blueprint datum alignment I got closer to what the customer reported to us (we had an OOT condition that we said was good; it wasn't).

              So, to ensure that it never happened again, I have gone this route. It realy isn't that much longer.
              sigpic

              James Mannes

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TCeckels View Post
                I don't know the best way to approach this with you guys so I'll just start and change course as necessary.

                What I have is a part that has multiple GD&T issues. I'm no guru in that dept. but I'm usually not as baffled as to what they want as I am on this part. There's 5 different issues and I'd like to run 'em by ya one at a time.

                But first, the alignment part of our program. I started out doing an interative alignment to this part just like I usually do, without problems, but on this part after I've done the manual Iterative & the DCC interative, I do a location for the B Datum hole which should be in this case X & Z equalling zero. However on this part X=0 but Z=.159 off zero. It's my understanding that if the part is aligned properly the B datum, the origin, should be zero. Why on this part isn't that the case? Can you see where I've done something wrong that I just can't find??? I beg of you your help.
                In the meantime I've done a regular A,B,C alignment and when I do a location on the B with that setup, everything is at zero like it should be.....
                I'm going to try and post pics on here but if you want to play with the program / CAD file I'd be happy to send it to you for testing......

                Once this problem is resolved then I'd like to go over the GD&T stuff.......I guess you can think of this as my version of the 12 days of Christmas.

                Any and all help greatly appreicated....even if you confuse me further

                Code:
                        [SIZE="1"] COMMENT/OPER,NO,==========================
                                           ,WARNING, Going to DCC mode now!
                                           ,==================================
                                           , 
                            MODE/DCC
                            MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,2478.019,706.493,747.991
                A1-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2450.865,616.816,675.938,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2450.883,616.783,675.922,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2450.865,616.816,675.938,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A2-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2486.853,616.816,696.272,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2486.86,616.772,696.274,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2486.853,616.816,696.272,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A3-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2528.501,616.816,673.86,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2528.519,616.786,673.883,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2528.501,616.816,673.86,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A4-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2517.833,616.816,690.081,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2517.842,616.617,690.099,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2517.833,616.816,690.081,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A5-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2495.595,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2495.613,616.786,675.388,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2495.595,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A6-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2469.337,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2469.355,616.81,675.375,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2469.337,616.816,675.381,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                A7-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2453.632,616.816,691.588,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2453.641,616.697,691.573,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            TARG/2453.632,616.816,691.588,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                -A-PLN-D   =FEAT/PLANE,RECT,TRIANGLE
                            THEO/2486.088,616.816,682.643,0,1,0
                            ACTL/2486.102,616.75,682.645,0.0006139,0.9999895,0.0045323
                            CONSTR/PLANE,BF,A1-D,A2-D,A3-D,A4-D,A5-D,A6-D,A7-D,,
                            OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
                            FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
                B1-D       =AUTO/CIRCLE,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES,SHOWHITS = NO
                            THEO/2474.79,616.816,688.95,0,1,0,6.25
                            ACTL/2474.801,616.691,689.079,-0.0042635,0.9999788,0.004921,6.366
                            TARG/2474.79,616.816,688.95,0,1,0
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,IN,CIRCULAR,MAX_INSC,ONERROR = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10,RMEAS = None,None,None,$
                            READ POS = NO,FIND HOLE = NO,REMEASURE = NO,$
                            NUMHITS = 5,INIT = 3,PERM = 3,SPACER = 1,PITCH = 0,$
                            START ANG = 0,END ANG = 0,DEPTH = 0.8,$
                            ANGLE VEC = -1,0,0
                C2-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2453.822,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                            ACTL/2453.829,618.071,697.134,0.0003064,0.0045321,-0.9999897
                            TARG/2453.822,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                C3-D       =AUTO/VECTOR POINT,SHOWALLPARAMS = YES
                            THEO/2517.866,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                            ACTL/2517.875,618.031,697.153,0.0003064,0.0045321,-0.9999897
                            TARG/2517.866,618.18,697.17,0,0,-1
                            THEO_THICKNESS = 0,RECT,SNAP = NO,$
                            AUTO MOVE = BOTH,DISTANCE = 10
                LIN1-D     =FEAT/LINE,RECT,UNBND
                            THEO/2453.822,618.18,697.17,1,0,0
                            ACTL/2453.822,618.18,697.162,0.9999999,0,0.0005165
                            CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,C2-D,C3-D,,
                            OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
                            FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
                DCC1       =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:MANUAL, LIST= YES
                            ALIGNMENT/ITERATE
                              PNT TARGET RAD = 0.5, START LABEL = , FIXTURE TOL = 0.1, ERROR LABEL = 
                              MEAS ALL FEAT = ALWAYS ,MAX ITERATIONS = 99 ,LEVEL AXIS=YAXIS ,ROTATE AXIS=ZAXIS ,ORIGIN AXIS=XAXIS
                            LEVEL = A1-D,A2-D,A3-D,A4-D,A5-D,A6-D,A7-D,,
                            ROTATE = C2-D,C3-D,,
                            ORIGIN = B1-D,,
                            ALIGNMENT/END
                PART       =LABEL/
                            COMMENT/REPT,==========================
                                        ,Location of -B- Datum
                                        ,X=2474.790 
                                        ,Y=616.816
                                        ,Z=688.950
                                        ,D=6.250
                                        , 
                DIM LOC1= LOCATION OF CIRCLE B1-D  SD=0.000  UNITS=MM ,$
                GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
                AX    MEAS      NOMINAL     +TOL       -TOL        DEV      OUTTOL   
                X    2474.790   2474.790      0.050      0.050      0.000      0.000 ----#----
                Z     689.115    688.950      0.050      0.050      0.165      0.115 -------->
                D       6.366      6.250      0.150      0.030      0.116      0.000 -------#-
                END OF DIMENSION LOC1[/SIZE]

                Sure send me the Cad and print and I will try [email protected]
                XYZ_IJK
                pc-dmis 2012 mr1, 2013mr1
                calypso 5.4 sp1

                Comment

                Related Topics

                Collapse

                Working...
                X