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    Winston's post has got me thinking about a situation here where I work. I need advise and opinions on how to deal with my boss. She/he is a programmer with about 10 years experience. I have over 15 with at least 10 years automotive experience, we are also a tier 1 supplier.

    My biggest gripe is with datums, tooling spheres and measurements in relation to our parts. She/he does not think it is necessary to measure the actual gage datums on fixtures and only uses the tooling spheres as reference. I find tooling spheres mis-labeled and/or with in-correct coodinates on some. No instructions in any of the programs she/he writes on how to set up fixtures, clamps, Rayco set ups or how parts are to be loaded. This has been going on for several years and I have mentioned this on several occasions and get nowhere with it. If instructions get written, one of the other programmers or myself writes them. The other programmers here put instructions in the program when it is written and they are very thorough, but the boss can't seem to the act together.
    Speedwagon ROCKS!!!

  • #2
    "I get paid by the hour" and move on!
    Last edited by rebeldude; 04-21-2006, 09:34 AM.


    • #3
      Personally, i have my own opinions with Datum simulators, and tooling balls. I set up all of my fixture's VIA the datum simulators. Period. I use a manual alignment on the 'square corner', and go into DCC from there - then to the DS's.

      I would think that if you do use TB's, you would at least qualify the datum simulators, than set your origin(s) to them as well (and hey, why not do your rotation from there also huh?).

      How can you not measure the datum simulators? They are the components that restrict the 6 DOF on your fixture. NOT the TB's. The TB's don't mean a thing to the part. How can you not measure the datum simulators?

      Sounds like your boss needs a a little 'hug' from uncle Kev's crowbar of truth!

      RFS Means Really Fussy Stuff

      When all you have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail....


      • #4

        Well, ya win some and ya lose some ! As far as picking up the part datums on the fixtures, rather than the TB, the gauge should be certified previously to you using it. That is the responsibility of the gauge shop. You should have their report....There is nothing wrong with you doing a quick check on it your self after picking up the TB,s and then you will know. What kind of tolerances are you normally looking at ? If the tolerances are very tight, I would certifiy the fixture once yourselves and record the data and make any adjustments to the TB numbers. Once done, you should be able to pick up the TB's and just check your parts. It is redundant to pick up the datums on the fixture every time.

        As far as instructions on setup and whatnot, I ALWAYS use the "part/cmm" "part setup" parameter when starting a program. When I open the program months later, at least I can tell what the orientation of the fixture on the machine was, without creating any instructions. If there needs to be any other specific info, a digital picture tells a thousand words, especially on setting up Rayco setups. Sit down and discuss, consistency is key, you all need to do the same thing so running someone elses program is easy, not guessing. Just let the boss know you will be putting pics in the folder with the programs to show setups and that you think its a good idea in order to save time and money. If she can't respond positively to that, she is truly not a management person or team player.

        Just my 2 cents.
        Jim Jewell


        • #5
          Never mind..
          Last edited by kbotta; 04-18-2006, 08:25 AM.
          RFS Means Really Fussy Stuff

          When all you have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail....


          • #6
            Good Morning,
            Ok, here is my 2 cents. Regardless of how you do your alignment, you always need to check your nets and locating pins (datums). You can not be 100% sure that nothing has been changed. I have witnessed gauges being dropped by inspectors and many other situations where the validity of the fixture was compromised. While the instructions may not be in the process, it is just a good rule to put operator instructions in the program. Run the TB's or J corner and then check the datums. Once the results are verified as passable, then proceed with the prg. Unless you are confronted and ordered not to, I would do whats right, then if confronted, pull out the posts from here that I would print out for quick reference. CYA



            • #7

              My boss can't do my job, he can't even run a part programme!!!!
              It's great!!!
              I am a Mushroom................Kept in the dark and fed on sh*t!!!!!


              • #8
                In my opinion,your boss knows your point about writing set-up instrutions and contacting datum simulators on fixture gauges,maybe the reason she's not doing it is to make you understand who's the boss some bosses are like this
                you just have to dealt with it in the smart way.


                • #9
                  Personally, I like Kevin, "prefer to use the Datum nets. After all, the part will be loading on them to run your program. If a piece of "dust" gets on your net, when you are doing your alignment on your nets, then the actual part will sit on the "dust" when you check it also. Always keep your nets clean before aligning off them and before loading your parts. With tooling balls, I have found that there is too much room for error, therefore I don't waste my time with them unless I absolutely haven't any choice.

                  Customers that we make programs for, once explained why we do it this way, understand why and are happy. But you have to do what you think is right


                  • #10
                    I use the tooling balls
                    iterative alignment
                    measure all features
                    create report at end of program
                    cut and paste all the same dim. (rename)
                    create 321 alignment - from datums
                    insert alignment between the 2 reports
                    update - yes

                    a little extra work
                    covers both ways of looking at gage
                    one alignment detail could be off or tooling ball
                    so you need to look at both

                    just my 3 cents
                    DR Watson shut me down again !!!! :mad: Smoke break:eek:


                    • #11
                      I can understand the reasoning for not wanting the align off of the TB's. But again, with the TB's in the program, you can get a better view of any movement in the fixture. They will be a constant and provide historical data for future reference.



                      • #12
                        If tooling balls are available I use them. Initial tool setups by the machinist are datum faces but after a tool has been in service for a long time, those surfaces go away. I much prefer the tooling balls. I set up to the datum faces per the print and measure the tool. I meassure the tooling balls and supply the actual values to be stamped on the tool. After that, if the tool comes back to me, I use the tooling balls.

                        Hilton Roberts

                        "Carpe Cerveza"


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by slinky1561
                          My boss can't do my job, he can't even run a part programme!!!!
                          It's great!!!

                          if the nets, 4way and 2way check within 0.05mm aligning off the TB's then i usually go with the TB's. if the TB's are way out then i try to align off the datum nets 2way 4way. its not always possible to align to the 2way and 4way sometimes they put them in crazy places or make them a diamond shape that you can't even get a hit on.
                          Last edited by ; 04-18-2006, 10:18 AM.


                          • #14
                            heh We have tooling spheres on all of our gages, yet we use none of them. I like to use the actual datum features. using speres is like paying the middle man.
                            David Monroe
                            Is there any way to stop the infernal beeping!?

                            3.5 MR2
                            Dual Arm Vento



                            • #15
                              I use pictures and datums. I don't use TB's or fixture datums. Then again I'm in the plastic industry and the parts shrink so I actually have to use the part's datums.
                              I used to be high on life but I built up a tolerance.

                              Brown & Sharpe Global Advantage
                              PCDMIS CAD++ v2011mr2



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