Extra bonus in true position

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  • Extra bonus in true position

    Hello everyone, I have a question about how PCdmis calculates the extra bonus in a true position, what should you do if the element to check your true position has its size out of specifying? Should you add bonus if it is out of order whether it is larger or smaller?
    Thank you.

  • #2
    Even if the size is OOT, the maximum bonus cannot be larger than allowed, specified by the size tolerance.
    PC-DMIS CAD++ 2o19 R1 SP11

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    • JEFMAN
      JEFMAN commented
      Editing a comment
      I would ask to my boss for an "extra bonus", but I don't think he will agree...
      .

    • vpt.se
      vpt.se commented
      Editing a comment
      Same here, JEFMAN ...

  • #3
    vpt.se is correct, the bonus can only be applied when the feature is in tolerance. in the case of MMC, the bonus starts at zero when the feature is at its smallest size and increases up to the maximum allowable bonus when the feature is at its largest size. You can not add more bonus if the features size increases beyond its maximum tolerance.
    Neil Challinor
    PC-DMIS Product Owner

    T: +44 870 446 2667 (Hexagon UK office)
    E: [email protected]

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    • #4
      MMC bonus is based on limits of size --ID at MMC bonus = Zero bonus at (smallest size) LMC bonus (largest size)= total tolerance allowed, not more OD MMC is largest size and bonus = zero bonus at MMC (largest size); LMC is smallest size = total tolerance allowed, no more. A true position is an assembly point typically form, fit and function. Feature of size non-conforming is a red flag !

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      • #5
        Originally posted by vpt.se View Post
        Even if the size is OOT, the maximum bonus cannot be larger than allowed, specified by the size tolerance.

        Thank you Rich,
        In my work we have PCdmis and also Calypso and Calypso is adding bonuses even though this out of specification of its size (, Zeiss Staff still does not solve me if this is correct, does someone in the forum have an argument based on the standards either ASME Y14.5 2009 or ISO 1101? to be able to debate with Zeiss staff.

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        • #6
          Originally posted by neil.challinor View Post
          vpt.se is correct, the bonus can only be applied when the feature is in tolerance. in the case of MMC, the bonus starts at zero when the feature is at its smallest size and increases up to the maximum allowable bonus when the feature is at its largest size. You can not add more bonus if the features size increases beyond its maximum tolerance.
          Thank you, based on ASME Y14.5 2009 I think Calypso is doing it Wrong.

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          • #7
            Originally posted by vpt.se View Post
            Even if the size is OOT, the maximum bonus cannot be larger than allowed, specified by the size tolerance.
            Thank you, I am already looking at ASME Y14.5 2009 and I find no theoric argument on this subject... I need to discuss this with Zeiss and I can't find sustenment based on some standard...

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            • #8
              We also run Calypso. If I’m not mistaken, Zeiss leans toward ISO so you may wish to look there before ASME.

              Think about this: Assume you have an external feature with a position tolerance at MMC. The smaller the feature gets, the more position tolerance it has, right? If we’re allowed to increase the size of the tolerance zone after violating the limits of size, we could potentially end up with a very large area in which a feature of size 0 is allowed. As you can see, this is not logical or functional.

              The size tolerance and the position tolerance are two separate specifications that both must be satisfied simultaneously, so the argument doesn’t matter.

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              • #9
                Y14.5 2009 ASME defines LMC & MMC the condition in which a feature of size contains (least or most) material within stated limits- 1.3.38 / 1.3.39 .

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by JacobCheverie View Post
                  We also run Calypso. If I’m not mistaken, Zeiss leans toward ISO so you may wish to look there before ASME.

                  Think about this: Assume you have an external feature with a position tolerance at MMC. The smaller the feature gets, the more position tolerance it has, right? If we’re allowed to increase the size of the tolerance zone after violating the limits of size, we could potentially end up with a very large area in which a feature of size 0 is allowed. As you can see, this is not logical or functional.

                  The size tolerance and the position tolerance are two separate specifications that both must be satisfied simultaneously, so the argument doesn’t matter.
                  You need to change setting in Calypso

                  you can limit it: Extras > Settings > Measurement... > MMC/LMC

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                  • JacobCheverie
                    JacobCheverie commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I didn't know that, thank you.

                • #11
                  Originally posted by jkberkley View Post

                  You need to change setting in Calypso

                  you can limit it: Extras > Settings > Measurement... > MMC/LMC
                  Thank you
                  Already try that too but continue to add bonus even if the diameter is out of specification... please help me ((
                  Last edited by Carlos Gonzalez; 12-10-2020, 10:24 PM.

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                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Carlos Gonzalez View Post

                    Thank you
                    Already try that too but continue to add bonus even if the diameter is out of specification... please help me ((
                    Put a size dimension on the report so you'll have a dimension OOT.

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                    • #13
                      Carlos Gonzalez

                      Rich P has already answered your question correctly in post#9.

                      A feature can only be considered at LMC or MMC if it is within dimensional limits. If you're exceeding that tolerance range, you're no longer at LMC or MMC, so no bonus can be pulled.

                      If you're just learning this, that is all well and good. Can't fault you for not knowing something and wanting to learn.

                      However, this is well established within the manufacturing industry. Calypso knows this, I am sure they're aware of their flaw (how could they not be at this point) and are playing ignorant because they don't want to dissuade you from using their software. Not enough people have complained which would drive them to do something about it would be my guess. Shameful, if true.
                      Last edited by DAN_M; 12-11-2020, 07:38 AM.
                      SF7107(PCD), SF454(PCD), 152614(Quindos), 9159(Quindos), 7107(Quindos), B&S Manual, M&M Gear Checker

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                      • #14
                        Originally posted by Carlos Gonzalez View Post

                        Thank you
                        Already try that too but continue to add bonus even if the diameter is out of specification... please help me ((
                        After you made the setting change, try creating a NEW position characteristic. Calypso will also prompt you concerning the feature of size when choosing a modifier. It may ask to create a new characteristic (which is uses for bonus calculation) and differing evaluation method, depending on your settings.

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                        • #15
                          Originally posted by DAN_M View Post
                          Carlos Gonzalez

                          Rich P has already answered your question correctly in post#9.

                          A feature can only be considered at LMC or MMC if it is within dimensional limits. If you're exceeding that tolerance range, you're no longer at LMC or MMC, so no bonus can be pulled.

                          If you're just learning this, that is all well and good. Can't fault you for not knowing something and wanting to learn.

                          However, this is well established within the manufacturing industry. Calypso knows this, I am sure they're aware of their flaw (how could they not be at this point) and are playing ignorant because they don't want to dissuade you from using their software. Not enough people have complained which would drive them to do something about it would be my guess. Shameful, if true.

                          Thank you DAN for your feedback,

                          Today I was with an expert in Calypso and Aukom, I wonder that Calypso should not do that, at the moment could not limit that in Calypso 2020 which is the one we have... we think it will be necessary to have PCM to be able to limit it and not add extra bonuses when it is out of specification the diameters, the next week I will continue with the tests to adjust in the settings that is as Jkberkley is suggesting

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