How best to measure TP

[Vladimir]

Greetings to colleagues
I hope you and your loved ones are in good health
My question is about measuring one part
I thought how to measure the selected size and it occurred to me only two ideas
1. two lines intersect the theoretical circle (created using constructed circle ), the distance between two points, and the middle point between them as the center of the circle. In this case, the measurement is almost completely green, TP is almost green. But I understand that the intersection points are not on the 48th diameter, as required by the drawing.
2. I create a vector point approximetely where I need at 3d model and through the polar coordinates I set R 24 (I do not change the angle), also from the opposite side. Now the distance between them goes far beyond the tolerance and the whole dimension is red. But I know that the point is now on diamter 48.
Maybe someone will tell me a more correct direction for this measurement.
P.S.
I use xact for TP
1.jpg

[neil.challinor]

The correct approach would be as follows...
1) Align your part then (assuming the view you've shown is looking down the Z axis) create a generic cylinder at x & y zero with a z vector and diameter of 48. Define this as Datum A (DATDEF command)
2) Either measure lines or preferably scan the flanks. Make sure the line / scan extends beyond either side of the theoretical intersection point where the flank meets the Ø48.
3) If scanning, create a curve from each scan.
4) Pierce the generic cylinder with each line/curve to create a point on each flank. These points will be at the exact 24mm radius from the centre.
5) Dimension the 3D distance between your points (this is the 8.98 dimension) but don't send the distance to the report (turn output to NONE).
6) Create a mid point from the two points on the flanks.
7) Create a generic circle and set the THEO values accordingly - I rotated my alignment trough the 37° angle shown on your print to make things easier so my theo X=0, Y=23.576, Z=0, R=4.49 (Ø8.98)
8) Set the MEAS values X=MidPnt.X, Y=MidPnt.y, Z=0, R=DIST.MEAS/2
9) Dimension the position using XactMeasure, planar zone, only reporting the X value and DF (feature diameter).

The reason for turning the distance & midpoint into a generic circle is to allow PC-Dmis to apply the MMC correctly. This is a very old school method which essentially works the same was as the width feature. Unfortunately, because your flanks are not parallel, you can't simply construct a width - yet. 2020 R2 will allow you to construct a 1D width from two points which will remove the need for the generic circle.

Example code...

PART NAME : for
REV NUMBER :
SER NUMBER :
STATS COUNT : 1

STARTUP =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:USE_PART_SETUP,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/END
MODE/MANUAL
PREHIT/0.5
RETRACT/0.5
MOVESPEED/ 500
TOUCHSPEED/ 4
FLY/ON
FORMAT/TEXT,OPTIONS, ,HEADINGS,SYMBOLS, ;NOM,TOL,MEAS,DEV,OUTTOL, ,
LOADPROBE/2X30
TIP/T1A0B0, SHANKIJK=0, 0, 1, ANGLE=0
DAT_A =GENERIC/CYLINDER,DEPENDENT,CARTESIAN,OUT,$
NOM/XYZ,<0,0,0>,$
MEAS/XYZ,<0,0,0>,$
NOM/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
MEAS/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
RADIUS/24,24,$
DISTANCE/50,50
A1 =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:STARTUP,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/ROTATE_OFFSET,-37,ABOUT,ZPLUS
ALIGNMENT/END
LIN1 =FEAT/CONTACT/LINE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,BOUNDED
THEO/<2.78,28.275,0>,<6.2,18.878,0>,<0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,-0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>,10
ACTL/<2.78,28.275,0>,<6.2,18.878,0>,<0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,-0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>,10
TARG/<2.78,28.275,0>,<6.2,18.878,0>,<0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,-0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
LIN2 =FEAT/CONTACT/LINE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,BOUNDED
THEO/<-2.78,28.275,0>,<-6.2,18.878,0>,<-0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>,10
ACTL/<-2.78,28.275,0>,<-6.2,18.878,0>,<-0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>,10
TARG/<-2.78,28.275,0>,<-6.2,18.878,0>,<-0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>,<-0.9396926,0.3420201,0>,<0,0,1>
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
PNT1 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<4.49,23.576,0>,<0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>
ACTL/<4.49,23.576,0>,<0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,DAT_A,LIN1
PNT2 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<-4.49,23.576,0>,<-0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>
ACTL/<-4.49,23.576,0>,<-0.3420201,-0.9396926,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,DAT_A,LIN2
DIM DIST1= 3D DISTANCE FROM POINT PNT1 TO POINT PNT2,SHORTEST=ON,NO_RADIUS UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=NONE
AX NOMINAL +TOL -TOL MEAS DEV OUTTOL
M 8.980 0.010 -0.010 8.980 0.000 0.000 ----#----
MIDPNT =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<0,23.576,0>,<0,0,1>
ACTL/<0,23.576,0>,<0,0,1>
CONSTR/POINT,MID,PNT1,PNT2
F2 =GENERIC/CIRCLE,DEPENDENT,CARTESIAN,OUT,$
NOM/XYZ,<0,MIDPNT.TY,0>,$
MEAS/XYZ,<MIDPNT.X,MIDPNT.Y,0>,$
NOM/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
MEAS/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
RADIUS/4.49,DIST1.MEAS/2
DATDEF/A,FEATURES=DAT_A,,
FCFLOC1 =POSITION : F2
FEATCTRLFRAME/SHOWNOMS=YES,SHOWPARAMS=YES,SHOWEXPANDED=YES,
CADGRAPH=BOTH,REPORTGRAPH=OFF,TEXT=OFF,MULT=200.00 ,ARROWDENSITY=100,OUTPUT=BOTH,UNITS=MM,
COMPOSITE=NO,FIT TO DATUMS=YES,DEV PERPEN CENTERLINE=ON,OUTPUT ALIGNMENT=Datum Reference Frame
CUSTOMIZED DRF=NO
STANDARDTYPE=ASME_Y14_5
SIZE TOLERANCES/1,DIAMETER,8.98,0.04,-0.04
PRIMARY DIMENSION/POSITION,<D>,0.05,MMC,A,<dat>,<dat>
SECONDARY DIMENSION/,<tol>,<MC>,<dat>,<dat>,<dat>
NOTE/FCFLOC1
FEATURES/F2,,
F2
X:NOM=0
<NEW>
DATUMS
D1:NOM=48,+TOL=0,-TOL=0

[Vladimir]

Thank you very much for such a detailed description of the measurement method, in the near future I will do it

[Vladimir]

OK, but I had a couple of questions:
1. as can be seen from the drawing, I have 6 such grooves, but if I rotate my alignment every time, it turns out what is visible in the attached protocol, as I understand it in this case, is it better to report the angle to the FCF ?
2. in the generic circle I set <0, MIDPNT.TY, 0> in NOM....what is the T ? I guess this is a polar radius, but why isn’t it 24 ?

I worry that my questions are too stupid, but I’d better honestly say that I don’t understand and will fully understand than the other way around

Below is my code with two grooves and their measurement

CIR_DAT_A =GENERIC/CIRCLE,DEPENDENT,CARTESIAN,IN,$
NOM/XYZ,<0,0,0>,$
MEAS/XYZ,<0,0,0>,$
NOM/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
MEAS/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
DIAMETER/48,48
DATDEF/FEATURE=CIR_DAT_A,A
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT10 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<13.176,22.879,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
ACTL/<13.234,22.766,-1.802>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
TARG/<13.176,22.879,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<13.176,22.879,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>,<13.176,22.879,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT11 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<9.999,21.344,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
ACTL/<10.054,21.228,-1.801>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
TARG/<9.999,21.344,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<9.999,21.344,-1.8>,<0.4349143,-0.9004718,0>,<9.999,21.344,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
LIN1 =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED,NO
THEO/<13.176,22.879,-1.8>,<-0.90041,-0.4350423,0>
ACTL/<13.234,22.766,-1.802>,<-0.9003074,-0.4352546,0>
CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,PNT10,PNT11,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT12 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<18.165,19.122,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
ACTL/<18.299,19.098,-1.801>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
TARG/<18.165,19.122,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<18.165,19.122,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>,<18.165,19.122,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT13 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<17.663,16.025,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
ACTL/<17.778,16.005,-1.801>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
TARG/<17.663,16.025,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<17.663,16.025,-1.8>,<-0.98708,0.1602284,0>,<17.663,16.025,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
LIN2 =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED,NO
THEO/<18.165,19.122,-1.8>,<-0.160004,-0.9871164,0>
ACTL/<18.299,19.098,-1.801>,<-0.1660896,-0.9861107,0>
CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,PNT12,PNT13,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
PNT14 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<10.495,21.584,-1.8>,<-0.90041,-0.4350423,0>
ACTL/<10.641,21.512,-1.802>,<-0.9003074,-0.4352546,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,LIN1,CIR_DAT_A
PNT15 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<17.694,16.215,-1.8>,<-0.160004,-0.9871164,0>
ACTL/<17.795,16.104,-1.801>,<-0.1660896,-0.9861107,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,LIN2,CIR_DAT_A
DIM DIST1= 3D DISTANCE FROM POINT PNT14 TO POINT PNT15,SHORTEST=OFF,NO_RADIUS UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=NONE
AX NOMINAL +TOL -TOL MEAS DEV OUTTOL
M 8.980 0.040 0.040 8.967 -0.013 0.000 ---#-----
PNT16 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<14.094,18.899,-1.8>,<0,0,1>
ACTL/<14.218,18.808,-1.801>,<0.0000011,-0.0000008,1>
CONSTR/POINT,MID,PNT14,PNT15
A3 =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A2,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/ROTATE_OFFSET,-37,ABOUT,ZPLUS
ALIGNMENT/END
F1 =GENERIC/CIRCLE,DEPENDENT,CARTESIAN,IN,$
NOM/XYZ,<0,PNT16.TY,0>,$
MEAS/XYZ,<PNT16.X,PNT16.Y,0.002>,$
NOM/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
MEAS/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
RADIUS/4.49,DIST1.MEAS/2
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT17 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<10.437,23.959,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
ACTL/<10.477,23.894,-1.801>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
TARG/<10.437,23.959,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<10.437,23.959,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>,<10.437,23.959,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT18 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<7.895,22.384,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
ACTL/<7.931,22.323,-1.801>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
TARG/<7.895,22.384,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<7.895,22.384,-1.8>,<0.5266568,-0.850078,0>,<7.895,22.384,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT19 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<16.051,20.643,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
ACTL/<16.164,20.633,-1.802>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
TARG/<16.051,20.643,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<16.051,20.643,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>,<16.051,20.643,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
MOVE/CLEARPLANE
PNT20 =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
THEO/<15.892,17.808,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
ACTL/<15.993,17.807,-1.801>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
TARG/<15.892,17.808,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>
SNAP=NO
SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
SURFACE=THEO_THICKNESS,0
MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
AUTO WRIST=NO
CLEARPLANE=YES
GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=13
SHOW HITS=YES
HIT/BASIC,<15.892,17.808,-1.8>,<-0.9984211,0.0561728,0>,<15.892,17.808,-1.8>
ENDMEAS/
LIN3 =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED,NO
THEO/<10.437,23.959,-1.8>,<-0.8500584,-0.5266884,0>
ACTL/<10.477,23.894,-1.801>,<-0.8510303,-0.5251166,0>
CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,PNT17,PNT18,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
LIN4 =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED,NO
THEO/<16.051,20.643,-1.8>,<-0.0559967,-0.998431,0>
ACTL/<16.164,20.633,-1.802>,<-0.0602781,-0.9981816,0>
CONSTR/LINE,BF,2D,PNT19,PNT20,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,WAVELENGTH=0
PNT21 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<8.182,22.562,-1.8>,<-0.8500584,-0.5266884,0>
ACTL/<8.268,22.531,-1.801>,<-0.8510303,-0.5251166,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,LIN3,CIR_DAT_A
PNT22 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<15.901,17.976,-1.8>,<-0.0559967,-0.998431,0>
ACTL/<15.998,17.89,-1.802>,<-0.0602781,-0.9981816,0>
CONSTR/POINT,PIERCE,LIN4,CIR_DAT_A
DIM DIST2= 3D DISTANCE FROM POINT PNT21 TO POINT PNT22,SHORTEST=OFF,NO_RADIUS UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=NONE
AX NOMINAL +TOL -TOL MEAS DEV OUTTOL
M 8.980 0.040 0.040 9.017 0.037 0.000 --------#
PNT23 =FEAT/POINT,CARTESIAN,NO
THEO/<12.042,20.269,-1.8>,<0,0,1>
ACTL/<12.133,20.21,-1.801>,<0,0,1>
CONSTR/POINT,MID,PNT21,PNT22
A4 =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A3,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/ROTATE_OFFSET,-31,ABOUT,ZPLUS
ALIGNMENT/END
F2 =GENERIC/CIRCLE,DEPENDENT,CARTESIAN,IN,$
NOM/XYZ,<0,PNT23.TY,0>,$
MEAS/XYZ,<PNT23.X,PNT23.Y,0>,$
NOM/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
MEAS/IJK,<0,0,1>,$
RADIUS/4.49,DIST2.MEAS/2
FCFLOC1 =POSITION : F1,F2
FEATCTRLFRAME/SHOWNOMS=NO,SHOWPARAMS=YES,SHOWEXPANDED=YES
CADGRAPH=OFF,REPORTGRAPH=OFF,TEXT=OFF,MULT=10.00,A RROWDENSITY=100,OUTPUT=BOTH,UNITS=MM
COMPOSITE=NO,FIT TO DATUMS=YES,DEV PERPEN CENTERLINE=ON,OUTPUT ALIGNMENT=Datum Reference Frame
CUSTOMIZED DRF=NO
STANDARDTYPE=ISO_1101
SIZE TOLERANCES/2,DIAMETER,8.98,0.04,0.04
PRIMARY DIMENSION/POSITION,0.05,MMC,A,<MC>,<dat>,<dat>
SECONDARY DIMENSION/<Dim>,<tol>,<MC>,<dat>,<dat>,<dat>
NOTE/FCFLOC1
FEATURES/F1,F2,,

435.jpg

[Vladimir]

oy, understandably, thanks
I don't know what means HTH

[Mike Ruff]

HTH = Hope This Helps

[Vladimir]

oy, okey