Runout Experts needed...

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  • Runout Experts needed...

    I have 2 circles that I scanned. I drew a line between the 2 and that is being used as my Datum. Can runout be measured using a line drawn between to circles? I was told that using cones makes it nearly impossible to get good runout data.

  • #2
    Your question is very short-worded, so we can only imply a few conditions...
    I have 2 circles that I scanned. I drew a line between the 2 and that is being used as my Datum.
    Are these two circles for your datum coaxial?

    Can runout be measured using a line drawn between to circles?
    No. Runout is a surface measurement, not an axis measurement. You would be measuring concentricity if you judge only the center-line.

    I was told that using cones makes it nearly impossible to get good runout data.
    What does this have to do with cones?

    Comment


    • Douglas
      Douglas commented
      Editing a comment
      if these circles are 2 locations on a shaft for example, I construct a line using 2 circles to define the part axis then use it as a datum to check concentricity or runout of other features against, I think this is what he means

    • louisd
      louisd commented
      Editing a comment
      yes you can use two circles to level to, for establishing a datum axis.
      Measurement of runout is not relative to the axis line however, it is measured as a circumferential "total indicator readout" of the part surface.

    • Douglas
      Douglas commented
      Editing a comment
      yes the total variation of the surface while rotated about that axis line, the axis is just the datum not the runout itself. Move the axis and the runout value changes though so it is not really as independent of center point as a circularity measurement is, but yes the error is on the surface in both cases

  • #3


    • " Measurement of runout is not relative to the axis line however, it is measured as a circumferential "total indicator readout" of the part surface".

      Isnt this exactly what runout is ? The surface in relation to an AXIS / DATUM ?

    Comment


    • Schlag
      Schlag commented
      Editing a comment
      Page 180 of Y14.5-2009
      SECTION 9-2
      Runout is the tol. used to control the function relationship of 1 or more features to a datum axis established from a datum feature.

    • louisd
      louisd commented
      Editing a comment
      Shlag, the question posed is worded rather oddly. "Can runout be measured using a line drawn between to circles?"
      The answer is No. Runout cannot be MEASURED using a line. Never ever. Runout must be measured as we've both clarified.

      DATUM ALIGNMENT can be established with a line drawn between two circles, then runout can be measured circumferentially, relative to that line...
      --you can't MEASURE (aka quantify variation numerically) runout with an axis line.
      Last edited by louisd; 09-23-2019, 06:40 PM.

  • #4
    Yes. I do this a lot. But not through just two circles.

    I have many turned parts where -A- is an outside diameter, -B- is a different sized outside diameter, and there is GD&T all over my print that says '"Runout of a certain diameter A-B".

    I will measure three individual autocircles on -A-. Three individual autocircles on -B-. Put a point at the center of each circle. Construct a 3D line through the six points. Then..Insert an alignment....Level to Line A-B..Translate X and Y to Line A-B, Translate Z to a plane/point where I want it.

    If you want to see some sample code LMK.
    SF7107(PCD), SF454(PCD), 152614(Quindos), 9159(Quindos), 7107(Quindos), B&S Manual, M&M Gear Checker

    Comment


    • Ray Harvey
      Ray Harvey commented
      Editing a comment
      Sure. I will try this out and see if this works. If you have some samples I would appreciate it. That actually makes a lot of sense to do it that way...

      Thanks….

    • DAN_M
      DAN_M commented
      Editing a comment
      Code:
      COMMENT/OPER,NO,FULL SCREEN=NO,AUTO-CONTINUE=NO,
                  Once you press OKAY to this message....
      
                  Measure a circle (4 hits) in the side hole
                  COMMENT/OPER,NO,FULL SCREEN=NO,AUTO-CONTINUE=NO,
                  Press OKAY for CNC Measurement
                  MODE/MANUAL
                  WORKPLANE/XPLUS
      CIR_3PLACE_MANUAL=FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0.55,-0.486,-3.38>,<1,0,0>,0.2475
                  ACTL/<0.55,-0.486,-3.38>,<1,0,0>,0.2475
                  TARG/<0.55,-0.486,-3.38>,<1,0,0>
                  START ANG=0,END ANG=360
                  ANGLE VEC=<0,0,-1>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MODE/DCC
      CYL_3PLACE_CNC=FEAT/CONTACT/CYLINDER/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0.585,-0.486,-3.38>,<1,0,0>,0.2475,0.075
                  ACTL/<0.585,-0.486,-3.38>,<1,0,0>,0.2475,0.075
                  TARG/<0.585,CIR_3PLACE_MANUAL.Y+0,CIR_3PLACE_MANUAL.Z+0>,<1,0,0>
                  START ANG=0,END ANG=360
                  ANGLE VEC=<0,0,-1>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  WORKPLANE/ZPLUS
      A3         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:STARTUP,LIST=YES
                    ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN_Z1
                    ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,XPLUS,TO,CYL_3PLACE_CNC,ABOUT,ZPLUS
                    ALIGNMENT/TRANS,XAXIS,CIR_XY2
                    ALIGNMENT/TRANS,YAXIS,CIR_XY2
                    ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN_Z1
                  ALIGNMENT/END
                  MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<1.5,-0.486,-3.38>
                  MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<1.5,-0.486,4>
                  TIP/T1A45B180, SHANKIJK=0, -0.7071, 0.7071, ANGLE=180
      RADH1      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=-2.5,END ANG=182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADH2      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=182.5,END ANG=-2.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0.25,0,0>
      RADG1      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=-2.5,END ANG=182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADG2      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=182.5,END ANG=-2.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADG3      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=-2.5,END ANG=182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0,-0.55,0>
      PNTF1      =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
                  THEO/<-1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  ACTL/<-1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  TARG/<-1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  SNAP=NO
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0,-0.645,0>
      PNTF2      =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
                  THEO/<0,-1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  ACTL/<0,-1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  TARG/<0,-1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  SNAP=NO
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<1.1172,0,0>
      PNTF3      =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
                  THEO/<1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  ACTL/<1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  TARG/<1.1172,-0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  SNAP=NO
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<PNTF3.X+0.1,PNTF3.Y-0.1,1>
                  TIP/T1A45B0, SHANKIJK=0, 0.7071, 0.7071, ANGLE=0
      RADH3      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=2.5,END ANG=-182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADH4      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=177.5,END ANG=362.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0.25,0,0>
      RADG4      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=2.5,END ANG=-182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADG5      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=177.5,END ANG=362.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
      RADG6      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
                  THEO/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  ACTL/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,0
                  TARG/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  START ANG=2.5,END ANG=-182.5
                  ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
                  DIRECTION=CCW
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0,0.55,0>
      PNTF4      =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
                  THEO/<-1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  ACTL/<-1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  TARG/<-1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  SNAP=NO
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<0,0.645,0>
      PNTF5      =FEAT/CONTACT/VECTOR POINT/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN
                  THEO/<0,1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  ACTL/<0,1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  TARG/<0,1.29,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  SNAP=NO
                  SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=NO
                  SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=NO
                  MOVE/INCREMENT,<1.1172,0,0>

    • DAN_M
      DAN_M commented
      Editing a comment
      Code:
      pntf6      =feat/contact/vector point/default,cartesian
                  theo/<1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  targ/<1.1172,0.645,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  snap=no
                  show feature parameters=no
                  show contact parameters=no
      pln_f      =feat/plane,cartesian,triangle,no,least_sqr
                  theo/<0,0,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-5.34>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/plane,bf,pntf1,pntf2,pntf3,pntf4,pntf5,pntf6,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,wavelength=0
      scn1       =feat/set,cartesian
                  theo/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/set,basic,radg3.hit[1..5],radg6.hit[1..5],,
      cir_g_bot  =feat/circle,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  actl/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  constr/circle,bf,2d,scn1,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,upr=0
      pnt_g_bot  =feat/point,cartesian,no
                  theo/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/point,cast,cir_g_bot
      scn4       =feat/set,cartesian
                  theo/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/set,basic,radg2.hit[1..5],radg5.hit[1..5],,
      cir_g_ctr  =feat/circle,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  actl/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  constr/circle,bf,2d,scn4,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,upr=0
      pnt_g_ctr  =feat/point,cartesian,no
                  theo/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/point,cast,cir_g_ctr
      scn7       =feat/set,cartesian
                  theo/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/set,basic,radg1.hit[1..5],radg4.hit[1..5],,
      cir_g_top  =feat/circle,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  actl/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>,2.4027
                  constr/circle,bf,2d,scn7,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,upr=0
      pnt_g_top  =feat/point,cartesian,no
                  theo/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-3.8>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/point,cast,cir_g_top
      cyl_g      =feat/cylinder,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,1.4
                  actl/<0,0,-4.5>,<0,0,1>,2.4027,1.4
                  constr/cylinder,bf,cir_g_bot,cir_g_ctr,cir_g_top,,
      scn10      =feat/set,cartesian
                  theo/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/set,basic,radh2.hit[1..5],radh4.hit[1..5],,
      cir_h_bot  =feat/circle,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781
                  actl/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>,2.3781
                  constr/circle,bf,2d,scn10,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,upr=0
      pnt_h_bot  =feat/point,cartesian,no
                  theo/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-1.1>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/point,cast,cir_h_bot
      scn13      =feat/set,cartesian
                  theo/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/set,basic,radh1.hit[1..5],radh3.hit[1..5],,
      cir_h_top  =feat/circle,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781
                  actl/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781
                  constr/circle,bf,2d,scn13,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,upr=0
      pnt_h_top  =feat/point,cartesian,no
                  theo/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-0.875>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/point,cast,cir_h_top
      cyl_h      =feat/cylinder,cartesian,out,least_sqr,no
                  theo/<0,0,-0.9875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0.225
                  actl/<0,0,-0.9875>,<0,0,1>,2.3781,0.225
                  constr/cylinder,bf,cir_h_bot,cir_h_top,,
                  workplane/yminus
      lin_gh     =feat/line,cartesian,unbounded,no
                  theo/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  actl/<0,0,-5.2>,<0,0,1>
                  constr/line,bf,3d,pnt_g_bot,pnt_g_ctr,pnt_g_top,pnt_h_bot,pnt_h_top,,
                  outlier_removal/off,3
                  filter/off,wavelength=0
                  workplane/zplus
      a4         =alignment/start,recall:startup,list=yes
                    alignment/level,zplus,pln_f
                    alignment/rotate,xplus,to,cyl_3place_cnc,about,zplus
                    alignment/trans,xaxis,lin_gh
                    alignment/trans,yaxis,lin_gh
                    alignment/trans,zaxis,pln_f
                  alignment/end
      a5         =alignment/start,recall:startup,list=yes
                    alignment/level,zplus,lin_gh
                    alignment/trans,xaxis,lin_gh
                    alignment/trans,yaxis,lin_gh
                    alignment/trans,zaxis,pln_f
                  alignment/end

  • #5
    Capture.PNG
    My part was approx 1.5feet tall and 3" in dia..had a bunch of runouts that were "G-H" on my print (the blue surfaces).
    Datum -H- was kind of small so I only did two circles on it. But you get the idea. Ray Harvey
    SF7107(PCD), SF454(PCD), 152614(Quindos), 9159(Quindos), 7107(Quindos), B&S Manual, M&M Gear Checker

    Comment


    • Douglas
      Douglas commented
      Editing a comment
      This is pretty much what I've done on several parts and I like it, our in house engineering drawings don't use much GDT so it is up to me to define datums as I see functionally important... and I report the form deviations I want to, but it all saves our *** when assemblies fail and we need to defend our parts. Often the root cause is never really determined but those with the least inspection data are on the hook. Those 2 datum surfaces on a shaft will often be the bearing journals for example and the rest of the shaft can be checked for runout functionally the way it will be restrained by the bearings in service.

    • Ray Harvey
      Ray Harvey commented
      Editing a comment
      Sorry for the late response, I was unavailable to respond " family emergency". I will try this and see if I can get this to work... DAN_M

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