True Position Question

[mckenzie]

im probably missing something basic.

part is basically a block with a bore through the top face. the true position datum structure

is ABD a=top face b= back face d= left edge

if i measure the hole location against the datums individually as a distance i get within .015mm but the TP is way out. see pic

any help is appreciated.

001.png

[mckenzie]

part name  : 0041-56149
rev number : 03
ser number :
Stats count : 1

startup    =alignment/start,recall:use_part_setup,list=yes
            alignment/end
            mode/manual
            format/text,options, ,headings,symbols, ;nom,tol,meas,dev,outtol, ,
            loadprobe/2x40
            tip/t1a0b0, shankijk=0, 0, 1, angle=0
            movespeed/ 50
c1         =comment/yesno,no,full screen=no,auto-continue=no,
            do you want to do a manual alignment?
            Assign/v1=c1.inputvalue
            if_goto/v1==1,goto = l1_start_here
            if_goto/v1==2,goto = l2_start_here
l1_start_here=label/
pln1       =feat/contact/plane/default,cartesian,outline,least_sqr
            theo/<45.453,5.934,19>,<0,0,1>
            actl/<106.64,326.642,-727.696>,<0.0001013,0.0020172,0.999998>
            targ/<45.453,5.934,19>,<0,0,1>
            angle vec=<1,0,0>,square
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              surface=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=yes
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=2,numrows=2
              spacer=85
              avoidance move=no,distance=10
            show hits=no
a1         =alignment/start,recall:startup,list=yes
              alignment/level,zplus,pln1
              alignment/trans,zaxis,pln1
            alignment/end
lin1       =feat/contact/line/default,cartesian,unbounded
            theo/<-10.486,28,0>,<1,0,0>,<0,-1,0>,<0,0,1>,17.539
            actl/<62.327,355.175,-0.666>,<0.9999999,-0.0003381,0>,<-0.0003381,-0.9999999,0>,<0.0001013,0.0020172,0.999998>,6.504
            targ/<-10.486,28,0>,<1,0,0>,<0,-1,0>,<0,0,1>
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              surface1=thickness_none,0
              surface2=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=yes
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=3,depth=3
              sample method=sample_hits
              sample hits=0,spacer=0,indent1=0,indent2=0
              avoidance move=no,distance=10
            show hits=no
a2         =alignment/start,recall:a1,list=yes
              alignment/level,zplus,pln1
              alignment/trans,zaxis,pln1
              alignment/rotate,xplus,to,lin1,about,zplus
              alignment/trans,yaxis,lin1
            alignment/end
cir1       =feat/contact/circle/default,cartesian,in,least_sqr
            theo/<80,-28,0>,<0,0,1>,47.05
            actl/<147.32,-28.032,0>,<0,0,1>,47.035
            targ/<80,-28,0>,<0,0,1>
            start ang=0,end ang=360
            angle vec=<1,0,0>
            direction=ccw
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              remeasure=no
              surface=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=yes
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=4,depth=3,pitch=0
              sample method=sample_hits
              sample hits=0,spacer=0
              avoidance move=no,distance=10
              find hole=disabled,onerror=no,read pos=no
            show hits=no
a3         =alignment/start,recall:a2,list=yes
              alignment/level,zplus,pln1
              alignment/trans,zaxis,pln1
              alignment/rotate,xplus,to,lin1,about,zplus
              alignment/trans,xaxis,cir1
              alignment/trans,yaxis,cir1
            alignment/end
l2_start_here=label/
            mode/dcc
            clearp/zplus,10,zplus,10,on
            move/clearplane
pln2       =feat/contact/plane/default,cartesian,outline,least_sqr
            theo/<-38.264,-1.213,0>,<0,0,1>
            actl/<-38.263,-1.212,-0.009>,<-0.0000336,0.0000178,1>
            targ/<-38.264,-1.213,0>,<0,0,1>
            angle vec=<1,0,0>,square
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              surface=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=no
              circular moves=straight
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=2,numrows=2
              spacer=66
              avoidance move=both,distance=10
            show hits=no
a4         =alignment/start,recall:a3,list=yes
              alignment/level,zplus,pln2
              alignment/trans,zaxis,pln2
            alignment/end
            move/clearplane
lin2       =feat/contact/line/default,cartesian,unbounded
            theo/<-101.146,55.3,0>,<1,0,0>,<0,1,0>,<0,0,1>,94.983
            actl/<-101.148,55.303,0.003>,<1,0.0001432,0>,<-0.0001432,1,0>,<0.0000677,0.0020351,0.9999979>,94.983
            targ/<-101.146,55.3,0>,<1,0,0>,<0,1,0>,<0,0,1>
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              surface1=thickness_none,0
              surface2=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=no
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=3,depth=3
              sample method=sample_hits
              sample hits=0,spacer=0,indent1=0,indent2=0
              avoidance move=no,distance=10
            show hits=no
            move/clearplane
cir2       =feat/contact/circle/default,cartesian,in,least_sqr
            theo/<0,0,0>,<0,0,1>,47.05
            actl/<-0.005,-0.002,0>,<0,0,1>,47.017
            targ/<0,0,0>,<0,0,1>
            start ang=0,end ang=360
            angle vec=<1,0,0>
            direction=ccw
            show feature parameters=yes
              void detection=no
              remeasure=no
              surface=thickness_none,0
              measure mode=nominals
              rmeas=none,none,none
              auto wrist=no
              circular moves=straight
              graphical analysis=no
              feature locator=no,no,""
            show contact parameters=yes
              numhits=7,depth=2,pitch=0
              sample method=sample_hits
              sample hits=0,spacer=0
              avoidance move=no,distance=10
              find hole=disabled,onerror=no,read pos=no
            show hits=no

[mckenzie]

A5         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A4,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN2
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN2
              ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,XPLUS,TO,LIN2,ABOUT,ZPLUS
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,XAXIS,CIR2
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,YAXIS,CIR2
            ALIGNMENT/END
            MOVE/CLEARPLANE
LIN10      =FEAT/CONTACT/LINE/ADAPTIVE_LINEAR_SCAN,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<-119.863,-2.916,0>,<0,1,0>,<-1,0,0>,<0,0,1>,52.947
            ACTL/<-119.871,-1.408,0.051>,<-0.0000813,1,0>,<-1,-0.0000813,0>,<0.0000677,0.0020351,0.9999979>,49.663
            TARG/<-119.863,-2.916,0>,<0,1,0>,<-1,0,0>,<0,0,1>
            SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
              VOID DETECTION=NO
              SURFACE1=THICKNESS_NONE,0
              SURFACE2=THICKNESS_NONE,0
              MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
              RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
              AUTO WRIST=NO
              GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
              FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
            SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
              NUMHITS=5,DEPTH=3
              SAMPLE METHOD=SAMPLE_HITS
              SAMPLE HITS=0,SPACER=0,INDENT1=0,INDENT2=0
              AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=10
            SHOW HITS=NO
            MOVE/CLEARPLANE
            WORKPLANE/YPLUS
PLN5       =FEAT/CONTACT/PLANE/DEFAULT,CARTESIAN,OUTLINE,LEAST_SQR
            THEO/<-40.179,55.3,-5.064>,<0,1,0>
            ACTL/<-40.179,55.313,-5.064>,<-0.0000078,1,-0.0000865>
            TARG/<-40.179,55.3,-5.064>,<0,1,0>
            ANGLE VEC=<-1,0,0>,SQUARE
            SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
              VOID DETECTION=NO
              SURFACE=THICKNESS_NONE,0
              MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
              RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
              AUTO WRIST=NO
              CIRCULAR MOVES=STRAIGHT
              GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
              FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
            SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
              NUMHITS=12,NUMROWS=2
              SPACER=6
              AVOIDANCE MOVE=BOTH,DISTANCE=10
            SHOW HITS=NO
            WORKPLANE/ZPLUS
            MOVE/CLEARPLANE
A6         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A5,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN2
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN2
              ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,XPLUS,TO,,ABOUT,ZPLUS
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,YAXIS,PLN5
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,XAXIS,LIN10
            ALIGNMENT/END
            MOVE/CLEARPLANE
CIR21      =FEAT/CONTACT/CIRCLE/ADAPTIVE_CIRCLE_SCAN,CARTESIAN,IN,MAX_INSC
            THEO/<119.863,-55.3,0>,<0,0,1>,47.05
            ACTL/<119.871,-55.313,0>,<0,0,1>,47.012
            TARG/<119.863,-55.3,0>,<0,0,1>
            START ANG=0,END ANG=360
            ANGLE VEC=<1,0,0>
            DIRECTION=CCW
            SHOW FEATURE PARAMETERS=YES
              VOID DETECTION=NO
              REMEASURE=NO
              SURFACE=THICKNESS_NONE,0
              MEASURE MODE=NOMINALS
              RMEAS=NONE,NONE,NONE
              AUTO WRIST=NO
              CIRCULAR MOVES=STRAIGHT
              GRAPHICAL ANALYSIS=NO
              FEATURE LOCATOR=NO,NO,""
            SHOW CONTACT PARAMETERS=YES
              NUMHITS=7,DEPTH=2,PITCH=0
              SAMPLE METHOD=SAMPLE_HITS
              SAMPLE HITS=0,SPACER=0
              AVOIDANCE MOVE=NO,DISTANCE=10
              FIND HOLE=DISABLED,ONERROR=NO,READ POS=NO
            SHOW HITS=NO
            MOVE/CLEARPLANE
            DATDEF/A,FEATURES=PLN2,,
            DATDEF/B,FEATURES=PLN5,,
            DATDEF/D,FEATURES=LIN10,,
FCFLOC1 =POSITION : CIR21
            FEATCTRLFRAME/SHOWNOMS=NO,SHOWPARAMS=YES,SHOWEXPANDED=YES,
            CADGRAPH=BOTH,REPORTGRAPH=OFF,TEXT=OFF,MULT=10.00,ARROWDENSITY=100,OUTPUT=BOTH,UNITS=MM,
            COMPOSITE=NO,FIT TO DATUMS=YES,DEV PERPEN CENTERLINE=ON,OUTPUT ALIGNMENT=Datum Reference Frame
            CUSTOMIZED DRF=NO
            STANDARDTYPE=ASME_Y14_5
              SIZE TOLERANCES/1,DIAMETER,47.05,0,0.04
              PRIMARY DIMENSION/POSITION,DIAMETER,0.03,MMC,A,B,D
              SECONDARY DIMENSION/,<tol>,<MC>,<dat>,<dat>,<dat>
              NOTE/FCFLOC1
            FEATURES/CIR21,,
DIM Y= 2D DISTANCE FROM PLANE PLN5 TO CIRCLE CIR21 PAR TO   YAXIS,NO_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M       55.300      0.015      0.015     55.313      0.013      0.000 --------#
DIM X= 2D DISTANCE FROM LINE LIN10 TO CIRCLE CIR21 PAR TO   XAXIS,NO_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M      119.863      0.015      0.015    119.871      0.008      0.000 ------#--

[RIDER]

mckenzie You are missing a ROTATE TO feature... in A6. Didn't think it was supposed to affect FCFs with all 6 DOF locked down, but try it and see.

[Schlag]

What version you using ? I may sound like IT ( have you tried robooting ?? ) delete your " dimension " and re-create. and.... I know it is a position callout and you lineal is a reference but a position of .03 is not going to come out at +/- .015. More like +/-.010 would be a safer . This is always assuming the same deviation in both directions as well.

Yeah..... that's metric but I guess it still applies !

[mckenzie]

sorry missed on of your questions - 2019R2

[Mike Ruff]

A6 is not rotating to anything. You could try totating Y+ to PLN5 and dimension with Legacy.

If you prefer Xact, if you haven't deleted and recreated the Xact dimension, that would be the first thing to try because Xact dims get corrupted sometimes

[Mike Ruff]

Dang, I guess I was a little too slow. People suggested all my ideas as I was typing it out haha

[bfire85]

PCDMIS might be whacked with a plane as A and B. Try A as a plane, B as a line, D as a point. Or change the alignment to Current Alignment to see if anything changes.

Also test changing the GD&T Standard to CUSTOM and taking the Fit to Datums and Perp to CL off and using your Current Alignment.

[vpt.se]

Or change the alignment to Current Alignment to see if anything changes.

Try this ^^

[AndersI]

Switching between Current alignment and Datum Reference Frame should not have any effect on the TP result, as it only decides which coordinate system is used in the Summary. But switch on SHOWNOMS in the FCF TP, and verify that the nominal values are correct for the chosen coordinate system.

[mckenzie]

Thanks everyone.

i fixed the alignment rotation, and changed datum b back to a line. i deleted and recreated the dimension. restarted the computer and the cmm,. changed from DRF to current alignment. no changes to the deviations. each change was done individually and then collectively.

creating the dimension again and changing the GD&T system to custom and unchecking fit to datums and perp to c/l swapped the deviations in X and Y

oh and double checked the x and y nominals, they were/are correct

[mckenzie]

002.png

[anthony.alfaro]

if you dimension in legacy, does it come out right?

Make sure the nominals for your datum features are 100% correct as well when using xact. Vectors and everything. If you're using a CAD model, open the auto-features you're basing the datums on and do a cad nominal refresh.

[mckenzie]

So started over from scratch and rewrote the program just in case there was some artifact hanging around causing an issue.

the new program only measures the datum features as plane, line, point and the bore as a circle.

the results are similar. the reported x and y deviations reported the position dimension are way out but the actual TP matches the deviations in x and y measured as linear dimensions.

so ive got a passing part but still scratching my head over the x,y deviations reported in the position dimension

003.png

[oddam]

try turning off perp. to centerline, that can affect TP readings.

[mckenzie]

Unfortunately that did not fix it this time.

[AndersI]

The distance calculation seems to match your nominal values in the FCF, but where is the coordinate system origin? Compared to the DRF origin? Do you use Current alignment or DRF in the picture shown?

[mckenzie]

both coordinates systems are the same. using DRF in the pictures