TP not coinciding with locations...

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  • #1

    TP not coinciding with locations...

    Okay. What I've got going on is my X deviation (at most) is at .0132" off nominal.

    My Y deviation is (also at most) .0083 off location.

    Nominal hole diameter is .4527", plus or minus .0196", with a measurement of .453".

    True position tolerance is .0196 at MMC in relation to A,B,&C., and .01 to itself.

    Everything I'm seeing tells me that while it's ugly, the hole pattern should fall into TP tolerance, because of MMC, but the CMM is telling me that the pattern, while well in tolerance to each other is .197 OOT in relation to the datums.

    What have I got going on?

    (yes. In the interest of brevity, I deleted many scan hits)


    Code:
    A2 =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A1,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN2
ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,YPLUS,TO,LIN3,ABOUT,ZPLUS
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,XAXIS,PNT1
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,YAXIS,PNT1
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PNT1
ALIGNMENT/END
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<-8.294,-5.899,0.25>
SCN1 =BASICSCAN/CIRCLE,NUMBER OF HITS=23,SHOW HITS=YES,SHOWALLPARAMS=NO
HIT/VECTOR,<-8.5211,-5.9123,0>,<0.9982963,0.0583474,0>,<-8.519,-5.899,-0.0003>,T=0.0029
ENDSCAN
CIR1 =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR,NO
THEO/<-8.294,-5.899,0>,<0,0,1>,0.455
ACTL/<-8.2926,-5.8858,-0.0001>,<0,0,1>,0.4545
CONSTR/CIRCLE,BF,2D,SCN1,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,UPR=0
DIM LOC1= LOCATION OF CIRCLE CIR1 UNITS=IN ,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=BOTH HALF ANGLE=NO
AX NOMINAL MEAS +TOL -TOL DEV OUTTOL
X -8.2940 -8.2926 0.0100 0.0100 0.0014 0.0000 -----#---
Y -5.8990 -5.8858 0.0100 0.0100 0.0132 0.0032 -------->
D 0.4527 0.4545 0.0196 0.0196 0.0017 0.0000 ----#----
END OF DIMENSION LOC1
A3 =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A2,LIST=YES
ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN2
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,XAXIS,SCN1
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,YAXIS,SCN1
ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,SCN1
ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,YPLUS,TO,LIN3,ABOUT,ZPLUS
ALIGNMENT/END
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<-0.0055,-0.0114,0.5>
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<-1.5445,-0.0114,0.5>
SCN2 =BASICSCAN/CIRCLE,NUMBER OF HITS=25,SHOW HITS=YES,SHOWALLPARAMS=NO
HIT/VECTOR,<-1.7717,-0.0226,0>,<0.9987792,0.0493967,0>,<-1.7681,-0.011,-0.0004>,T=0.0042
ENDSCAN
CIR2 =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR,NO
THEO/<-1.539,0,0>,<0,0,1>,0.455
ACTL/<-1.5418,0.0002,0>,<0,0,1>,0.4535
CONSTR/CIRCLE,BF,2D,SCN2,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,UPR=0
DIM LOC2= LOCATION OF CIRCLE CIR2 UNITS=IN ,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=BOTH HALF ANGLE=NO
AX NOMINAL MEAS +TOL -TOL DEV OUTTOL
X -1.5390 -1.5418 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0028 0.0000 ---#-----
Y 0.0000 0.0002 0.0100 0.0100 0.0002 0.0000 ----#----
D 0.4527 0.4535 0.0196 0.0196 0.0008 0.0000 ----#----
END OF DIMENSION LOC2
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<-1.5445,-0.0114,0.5>
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<0.496,-3.95,0.5>
SCN3 =BASICSCAN/CIRCLE,NUMBER OF HITS=25,SHOW HITS=YES,SHOWALLPARAMS=NO
HIT/VECTOR,<0.2688,-3.9375,0>,<0.9984977,-0.0547929,0>,<0.2655,-3.9458,0.0001>,T=-0.0028
HIT/VECTOR,<0.2694,-3.9298,0>,<0.9960388,-0.0889198,0>,<0.2674,-3.9382,-0.0004>,T=-0.0012
ENDSCAN
CIR3 =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR,NO
THEO/<0.496,-3.95,0>,<0,0,1>,0.455
ACTL/<0.4924,-3.9583,0>,<0,0,1>,0.4537
CONSTR/CIRCLE,BF,2D,SCN3,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,UPR=0
DIM LOC3= LOCATION OF CIRCLE CIR3 UNITS=IN ,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=BOTH HALF ANGLE=NO
AX NOMINAL MEAS +TOL -TOL DEV OUTTOL
X 0.4960 0.4924 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0036 0.0000 --#------
Y -3.9500 -3.9583 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0083 0.0000 #--------
D 0.4527 0.4537 0.0196 0.0196 0.0010 0.0000 ----#----
END OF DIMENSION LOC3
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<0.496,-3.957,0.5>
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<3.637,-1.102,0.5>
SCN4 =BASICSCAN/CIRCLE,NUMBER OF HITS=25,SHOW HITS=YES,SHOWALLPARAMS=NO
HIT/VECTOR,<3.4098,-1.0897,0>,<0.9985434,-0.0539547,0>,<3.4105,-1.0977,-0.0002>,T=0.0011
HIT/VECTOR,<3.4103,-1.0828,0>,<0.9964229,-0.0845066,0>,<3.4092,-1.0907,0>,T=-0.0005
ENDSCAN
CIR4 =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR,NO
THEO/<3.637,-1.102,0>,<0,0,1>,0.455
ACTL/<3.6353,-1.1099,0.0001>,<0,0,1>,0.4534
CONSTR/CIRCLE,BF,2D,SCN4,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,UPR=0
DIM LOC4= LOCATION OF CIRCLE CIR4 UNITS=IN ,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=BOTH HALF ANGLE=NO
AX NOMINAL MEAS +TOL -TOL DEV OUTTOL
X 3.6370 3.6353 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0017 0.0000 ---#-----
Y -1.1020 -1.1099 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0079 0.0000 #--------
D 0.4527 0.4534 0.0196 0.0196 0.0007 0.0000 ----#----
END OF DIMENSION LOC4
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<3.637,-1.102,0.5>
MOVE/POINT,NORMAL,<5.154,-3.957,0.5>
SCN5 =BASICSCAN/CIRCLE,NUMBER OF HITS=25,SHOW HITS=YES,SHOWALLPARAMS=NO
HIT/VECTOR,<4.9269,-3.9442,0>,<0.9984131,-0.0563137,0>,<4.9216,-3.9524,-0.0004>,T=-0.0048
HIT/VECTOR,<4.9276,-3.935,0>,<0.9953103,-0.0967333,0>,<4.9218,-3.9432,0>,T=-0.005
ENDSCAN
CIR5 =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR,NO
THEO/<5.154,-3.957,0>,<0,0,1>,0.455
ACTL/<5.148,-3.9652,0>,<0,0,1>,0.4542
CONSTR/CIRCLE,BF,2D,SCN5,,
OUTLIER_REMOVAL/OFF,3
FILTER/OFF,UPR=0
DIM LOC5= LOCATION OF CIRCLE CIR5 UNITS=IN ,$
GRAPH=OFF TEXT=OFF MULT=10.00 OUTPUT=BOTH HALF ANGLE=NO
AX NOMINAL MEAS +TOL -TOL DEV OUTTOL
X 5.1540 5.1480 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0060 0.0000 -#-------
Y -3.9570 -3.9652 0.0100 0.0100 -0.0082 0.0000 #--------
D 0.4527 0.4542 0.0196 0.0196 0.0015 0.0000 ----#----
END OF DIMENSION LOC5
DATDEF/FEATURE=PLN2,A
DATDEF/FEATURE=PLN3,B
DATDEF/FEATURE=LIN3,C
FCFLOC1 =POSITION : CIR1,CIR2,CIR3,...
FEATCTRLFRAME/SHOWNOMS=NO,SHOWPARAMS=YES,SHOWEXPANDED=YES
CADGRAPH=OFF,REPORTGRAPH=OFF,TEXT=OFF,MULT=10.00,A RROWDENSITY=100,OUTPUT=BOTH,UNITS=IN
COMPOSITE=YES,FIT TO DATUMS=YES,DEV PERPEN CENTERLINE=ON,OUTPUT ALIGNMENT=Datum Reference Frame
CUSTOMIZED DRF=NO
STANDARDTYPE=ASME_Y14_5
SIZE TOLERANCES/5DIAMETER,0.4527,0.0196,0.0196
PRIMARY DIMENSION/POSITION,DIAMETER,0.0197,MMC,A,B,C
SECONDARY DIMENSION/,DIAMETER,0.0098,MMC,<dat>,<dat>,<d at>
NOTE/FCFLOC1
FEATURES/CIR1,CIR2,CIR3,CIR4,CIR5,,
    Last edited by Quality ish; 07-31-2019, 03:49 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Are you using Legacy or Exactmeasure?
    Darroll
    2018R2
    • Likes 1

    Comment

    • #3
      My reports have little crosshairs that show the locations outside the acceptable area...

      Does that tell you?

      I wish I knew...

      Comment

      • #4
        In the tool bar, select the drop down that has the alignment and select dimensions. At the bottom of dimensions is Legacy. Either select or deselect to open Exactmeasure and then try to set up the FCF. Hopefully that helps.
        Darroll
        2018R2
        • Likes 1

        Comment

        • #5
          Okay. I think I found it.

          On the "Insert" drop down, I clicked on "Dimensions", and like you said, it gave me the option of "use Legacy dimensions". I clicked it. The only thing that happened was a check mark appeared next to it.

          No difference in the report, no window opened to adjust the FCF.

          Comment

          • #6
            Now select true position and do your dimensions.
            Darroll
            2018R2
            • Likes 1

            Comment

            • #7
              Okay. I think I've got it. Deleted the original TP, and redimensioned it with Legacy on this time, and the results are A LOT closer.

              Thanks.

              Comment

              • William Johnson
                #7.1
                William Johnson commented
                07-31-2019, 06:26 AM
                Editing a comment
                Legacy is dependent on your active alignment. Also it will not do proper fitting the way Exact does.
            • #8
              No worries! Glad I was able to help!
              Darroll
              2018R2

              Comment

              • #9
                Your last code tag should look like [ / CODE] w/o spaces if you want to show code. There is no reason why XACT won't work for you, there must be issues with parameters. Are your nominal X, Y, Z values correct in the advanced tab?
                • Likes 1

                Comment

                • #10
                  Just tossing on legacy your not treating the circles as a pattern anymore your inspecting them individually this is why you could see better numbers. Xactmeasure is treating them as a pattern and best fitting all the circles. MMC has nothing to do with your datums and you cant get MMB on non features of size "plane, Lines, points". Just doing the math with ur numbers your tol is .0296 with a position of .0312 so that circle would fail.

                  Comment

                  • Mike Ruff
                    #10.1
                    Mike Ruff commented
                    07-31-2019, 10:15 AM
                    Editing a comment
                    Actually, his positional tolerance is .0395. He's getting .0199" of bonus + .0196 positional tolerance = .0395"
                  • Quality ish
                    #10.2
                    Quality ish commented
                    07-31-2019, 03:50 PM
                    Editing a comment
                    In either respect, exact measure was telling me it was out by .290...
                • #11
                  Originally posted by JacobCheverie View Post
                  Your last code tag should look like [ / CODE] w/o spaces if you want to show code. There is no reason why XACT won't work for you, there must be issues with parameters. Are your nominal X, Y, Z values correct in the advanced tab?
                  "Advanced Tab"?

                  Where will I find this "Advanced Tab"?

                  Comment

                  • #12
                    Quality ish

                    XACT.jpg

                    Comment

                    • #13
                      FCF calls out 5 x TP .5 M to ABC, then as a composite: .25M

                      So the pattern has to be true to itself within .25mm (with a bonus of MMC. Trying to get these guys to drill a hole to the high side of tolerance though, is like pulling teeth)

                      Then the pattern has to be true to the datums within .5mm (with the MMC bonus). Thing is, four of the holes are dimensioned off the first hole, and they're checking well within the .25mm TP call out.

                      Given the relation to A (Z plane) B (constrains the X axis) and C, it should be pretty straight forward. Then I thought that because I was scanning a circle, just below the A plane, that may be contributing to the ABC deviation. I changed the circle scan to a cylinder, and created my circles using the cylinders and the plane A. I thought that would eliminate much of the deviation. It didn't.

                      If it's not in Legacy, it's saying the deviation is over 6mm, when my X is off by .26mm and my Y is off by .2mm. When it IS in Legacy, it shows the parts just falling into tolerance, with the MMC bonus. Unfortunately, it can't be in legacy, because I need to show the hole pattern is true to itself.

                      Finkel-Einhorn

                      AAAAArgh!!
                      Last edited by Quality ish; 07-31-2019, 07:20 PM.

                      Comment

                      • #14
                        Originally posted by JacobCheverie View Post
                        Quality ish

                        XACT.jpg
                        On 2018 R2, that tab appears to say "nominal".

                        When I click on it, it shows that:

                        X axis nominal is -168.4016
                        Y axis nominal is -196.7792
                        Z axis nominal is 0
                        PR axis nominal is 259.0003
                        PA axis nominal is 229.4434
                        and DF nominal is 11.5

                        Aside from the DF (which I've astutely figured out is the feature diameter) being 11.5, I have no idea what these numbers represent.

                        Comment

                        • #15
                          Thought maybe the fact that both datums A and B were planes, it could be giving strange measurements...

                          I created a line, using plane 2 and 3 (which would put that line on the same planes as both A (Z) and the previous B (Y) datums.

                          No dice. still hinky.

                          Comment

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