Vector pnt -vs- Surface pnts Pros_&_Cons

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  • STANLEY
    replied
    If your writing a program to check multiple parts with no cad. You can use surface points to get the ijk on the first part and edit the program to vector points after the program is written. If you have cad just use vector points . this is how i do machine castings or details.

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  • Wes Cisco
    replied
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Yes Matt, I am sure the $ is the answer. But it would be nice to know if there were some sort of a difference or not from B&S, Wilcox, &/or Hexagon. If you read the help menu blurbs they sound identical. Like you, I do not want the software doing *ANYTHING* I can't see. (e.g. the behind the scenes "mini" alignments with some trueposition options). And yes, I agree a new feature is easier from a programming standpoint, and that would be a fine answer from them. *BUT* the help menu ought to point out that surface point is only available in CAD++ and will not run in the stripped down version. OPPS. Sorry, there I go making sense again. As always Matt, thanks for sharing your vast experience.

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  • Matthew D. Hoedeman
    replied
    Well Wes, you are actually expecting LOGIC from B&S and WILCOX and HEXAGON? Quite a few years ago, when this SLOT thing hit me, I asked B&S about it, I asked them WHY can't a basic version of Pcdmis run the CODE from the full, expanded version of Pcdmis. I never got an answer. I also suggested it as an improvement for upcoming versions. It is a VERY good point. WHY can't they run it? Well, I don't know and I never heard anything more about it at the time or since then. We can probably all figure out why, and it is pretty much the answer to ALL the WHY questions we could ask of them, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. If they don't pay for the full version, they can't use functions/feature found in the full version.

    No big deal to me. If they eliminate the VECTOR point in ALL versions, then I will just use the surface point without the samples. But, Paul was trying to figure out how to explain to someone else WHY there are the two features and the answer is B&S wants the advanced functions and features of the SURFACE POINT kept away from people who do not want to pay for it. AND, it is easier (this I DO know) to add a seperate feature with added functions that to partially turn on functions within a feature, at least in my programming experience.

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  • jmgreen
    replied
    3.7 mr3
    For what it's worth, I've had this discussion on several occassions with BnS. We measure complex surfaces (automotive glass) and I usually have cad data (XYZIJK of points plus the cad iges). I had noticed variations particularly with vector points and differences between vector and surface points even using the exact same data. I had always used surface points in the past, especially with MM4.
    Their advice was use surface points with Snap point ON. This is what I do, with initial and perm set to 0.
    It seems to work fine for us and I agree that there shouldn't be any difference unless you need to take initial or perm hits first.

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  • Wes Cisco
    replied
    all the more reason

    Matt, isn't that all the more reason for CAD++ to just have the expanded parameters of the same option instead of a new option altogether. Scaled down versions of the software should still be able to run the CAD++ program, just not generate new code using CAD++ features. But then again, new releases of the software should be properly and completely vetted and debugged before being offically released, so in light of that, I will shut up now since none of the actual B&S/Wilcox/Hexagon people seem to care to explain why we need two buttons when one will do.

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  • Paul Sarrach
    replied
    OK, its like a SUV that has 2WD and 4WD. Depends on your driving means

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  • Matthew D. Hoedeman
    replied
    But Wes, can a CAR DEALER (our position in this analogy) ONLY keep 5-sp trans around or only the 6-sp? We do NOT know what our customers will want all the time, some will want teh 5-sp, some will want the 6. What if you have to pass YOUR program on to your customer and you use SURFACE points and they don't have the CAD++ and can not even run your program? I have seen this happen with MY programs, not with the SURFACE/VECTOR issue, but with SLOTS. I had to go back a re-program the slots into 2 circles because the basic version of Pcdmis will NOT run a slot, only the vector, edge and circle.

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  • Paul Sarrach
    replied
    No, That was dam good Wes.

    Well MAtt?

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  • Wes Cisco
    replied
    hmmmm

    Matt, I see your point, sort of. But why not just drop vector point in CAD++ version or just expand the bells and whistles on vector point and have no surface point. To use your analogy, why would you want both a 5 speed *AND* a 6 speed transmission in your car at the same time with the option of using either to do the same thing???? Maybe I am just dense.

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  • Paul Sarrach
    replied
    Gotcha, Vector points are the UnderDogs of Surface Points. Or Surface Points are the SuperMans of Vector Points

    I will use your analogy.

    '

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  • Matthew D. Hoedeman
    replied
    Well, there is ONE other reason for it, if the options are NOT there, then I don't have to worry about a follow-up user changing something, like the number of sample hits. you know how it is, look at what Winston is dealing with. Could be much worse, could have someone on the followup shift that likes to 'play' with the things he sees in the program. 'Hmmmmm, sample hits, what will it do if I change them?'. I say, give the children a few options as possible, then there is less they can surprise you with. Right now, the night guy that I have does not do things like that, but in the past, I have had some real 'great' pretenders on the machine that just could not leave well enough alone. I have nothing against 'playing' with the options in the spare time, but NOT IN ONE OF MY WORKING PROGRAMS!

    To explain to those non-users, simply tell them the truth, the surface point offers MORE functions of use than the VECTOR point does AND if all you have is the basic version of Pcdmis, you DO NOT GET the surface point option. You get VECTOR, EDGE and CIRCLE in the basic version and that is all (as far as I know, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). Once you get up to the CAD++ version, you have all the INTERNAL bells and whistles of Pcdmis, even if you don't have all the external bells (DCI, import/export types, etc.). So, tell them that the SURFACE point is a POWERED UP, EXTENDED vector point that you get with the higher power version of Pcdmis. Sort of like you can buy a car with a stick shift and you can get either the 5 speed or the 6 speed. They both do the same thing, so why would you want the 6 speed? Does it not offer more options that the 5 speed and yet perform the same function?

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  • Paul Sarrach
    replied
    OK, Matt, One and All

    You use Vector Points the same reason I use Surface Points. HABIT !

    I feel a lot better now.

    Though that does not help me explain to others. Its hard to explain to none CMM'ers, that something is the same when there is two options. There is no logic
    to it. Not that they understand LOGIC>

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  • Matthew D. Hoedeman
    replied
    A surface point without samples is the exact same thing as a vector point, Pcdmis will try to touch at the XYZ nominal moving along the nominal IJK vector. To tell the truth, I do NOT know why they have both when the surface point will act just like a vector point. The only thing I can thing of is that the vector point has been around since the early DOS days and I am not sure if the surface point was or not, it may have been added because someone (that same, special someone who has the ear of Wilcox/B&S for the 'user' improvements) wanted to be able to check a vector point with sample hits, so for a change, they added what is a useful function without removing a different useful function.

    But, even if they didn't mess this aspect up, they DID remove a VERY useful function in the migration from DOS to WINDOWS, does anyone else remember the option to construct an offset point ALONG the vector of another feature? I do, it was sure handy. Say you have a measured line and a measured point and you want to offset the point ALONG the vector of the line by 10mm. Used to be able to do this, in DOS, but no longer. If the vector of the line does not ever change, yep, you can stiull do it by calculating 10* each vector and using that for the offset, but what happens if the line twists by 5 degrees? Now you have to go and re-calculate and re-construct the point. Annoying to say the least. It would come in VERY handy indeed for SPC bushings, all without the need to make a seperate alignment.

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  • Wes Cisco
    replied
    at the top: ATTN B&S, Wilcox, Hexagon, et all

    I have always wondered about this. Let's keep this near the top and see if we can get a representative to give us the straight dope about just what the difference between a surface point without sample hits and a vector point is.

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  • Matthew D. Hoedeman
    replied
    I always (99+% of the time, even if I have to make it myself) have cad and I always use vector points, with one exception: If I have to check something, anything, that is not flat and sqaure that I don't have cad for, I will use a surface point and have it find the surface vector with the sample hits. That is the only time I will use them. And I have probably used them 8 times in the last 5 years at a guess. Also, when you are doing 3-D scanning with a TTP, and you want good data, and you have no cad data, you have 2 options, use surface points w/3 sample hits OR use vector points with the probe comp turned OFF. If you try to scan using vector points, either patch or linear, you will ONLY GET 2 axis of probe comp. (I am not sure about the patch, I AM sure about the linear). It will only comp along the 'slice' of your path, no 'cross-wise' comp will be there. So, since I do not want to take 1200 points to get 300 data points, I scan with the comp OFF using vector points. This is for 3-D scanning, if you are doing a 2-D scan (like the trim edge of a die steel or the profile of a flat blank) you can leave the comp on and use vector points since you will be scanning only a flat and square slice of the detail.

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