Training question

[jay R]

Hi everybody!!

As some of you may know, I am self taught regarding PCDmis and the operation of my CMM. I try to read here everyday to bolster my knowledge of the things that the software and my machine are capable of. However, I know that there are MANY things that I am not using that I could be.

I have a B & S 7-10-7, and PCDmis 3.25 mr3. I basically started out with the manuals and the sample part included with the software. I feel pretty confident in what I am doing currently as being correct and am what I would deem as quite functional with the software, to a point.

I inspect mainly proto-type castings, and do some jig and fixture qualification.

I have been running this machine and software for about a year now.

My question pertains to the training available through B & S. We have a gentleman locally that has assisted me on site occasionally, and based on what he has seen me do, he says to forego the basic training and take the advanced class, conversation with B & S techs during machine re-cert have indicated the same thing. I am wondering how many of you feel the same way about the basic class.

I am pretty well versed in GD&T. I have not used the iterative alignments with any success. I have not had any need to run to cad data yet, but know that eventually I will. I have done no programming off line. All of my programs are built as I go through the inspection process. I feel confident that my programs work well as I have had to do multiple part runs, and have never(knock on wood) had a crash. I have exported cad data from parts I have inspected and used it to create models within my cad package. I cannot substitute manually measured data into my reports for data that is wrong as measured by machine(although a couple of you have tried to help me sort this, I still can't make it work), e.g. extremely tight tolerance large bores. They don't always measure what my bore mic's and standards are saying they measure. Resulting in fist fights with tool makers!! Luckily, I am big enough to hold my own.........

That is a brief synopsis of what I have figured out on my own and with the help of the kind folks here on the forum.

I anxiously await your suggestions/opinions(with the noted exception of those of you that will hold the opinion that "sheesh, this guy IS an idiot, I have been doing this stuff for eons")

As always, thank you for your help and have a great day!!

Jay

[John Kingston]

Based on what you state, I think you are qualified for the advanced class.

(Or you think highly of yourself J/K)

[#2#]

WJS

In my experience the basic class was good for getting me up and running having never used a CMM before. It did give a hint as to the possiblilities of using CAD and such but did not go into great detail. I believe that if you have been successfully running for about a year that you already know all that you could get from the basic class.

Plus, if you have a question that comes up about something they say you should already know you can come to us for help. So, unless you are looking to put an extra certificate in your personel file save the $$ and skip the basic class.

[Wes Cisco]

I agree with John & Goodluck, it does not sound like you would get much from the basic class. You should try to get into a small advanced class if possible. (I know none of them are really very big.) But the fewer people, the more individual attention each gets. If there are a few gaps in your knowledge, there should be enough time for the instructor to fill them in during the advanced class.

Also, you mention problems accurately checking tight tolerance large bores. What kind of head do you have? Motorized or fixed? What type of probe? Mechanical, tp2, tp20, etc. or strain gage, tp200, scanning, etc.? How large a bore? How tight are the tolerances? How many hits? All of these things can make a significant difference. My experience has taught me that it is better to be safe, so if the tolerance is less than .002" total, I do not accept the CMM as last word for size, but back it up with micrometers or bore gage. HTH

[Rick Coleman]

Basic class

I also think you should pass the basic class. My boss made me take it early on. I could measure the he11 out of a 1,2,3 block when I got back. That was about it.
I met up with a couple of PC-DMIS programmers in my area and talked them out of a few programs to see how they were doing things. When I had a few more programming hours under my belt, one of them came in and gave me some on site tips. I did get into an advanced class later on.
This board has been a tremendous help. I've learned more here than at any of the B&S classes that I've taken.
As has been previously said here before, a CMM isn't exactly the best tool for checking bores with tight tolerances. I think I'd put more stock in your bore gages.

[Matthew D. Hoedeman]

Yeah, the basic class is a waste of time and money. I had been working a CMM for several years (VALMEAS200) when we upgraded to Pcdmis. The only thing I got out of the class was the very basic stuff, and NOT much of that as the other 5 people in the class were 4 China-men who could NOT speak English and their China-man interpreter. Of course, my experience may not be typical, but we couldn't get a refund even though I sat around doign absolutely NOTHING for 95% of the time, waiting for the other people in the class to figure out what was being said. That is the ONLY class I have gone to, all the rest is self-taught and these boards.

[Andrew Gardner]

I ran the software for 3 years before I went to the basic class. I did get quite a bit out of it, but nothing that you couldn't get from the advanced class.

When you do go to the advanced class, bring a list of all of the questions that you ever wanted answered. The instructors were more than happy to spend a little time with you either during class or after, to help you out.

[jay R]

I agree with John & Goodluck, it does not sound like you would get much from the basic class. You should try to get into a small advanced class if possible. (I know none of them are really very big.) But the fewer people, the more individual attention each gets. If there are a few gaps in your knowledge, there should be enough time for the instructor to fill them in during the advanced class.

Also, you mention problems accurately checking tight tolerance large bores. What kind of head do you have? Motorized or fixed? What type of probe? Mechanical, tp2, tp20, etc. or strain gage, tp200, scanning, etc.? How large a bore? How tight are the tolerances? How many hits? All of these things can make a significant difference. My experience has taught me that it is better to be safe, so if the tolerance is less than .002" total, I do not accept the CMM as last word for size, but back it up with micrometers or bore gage. HTH

Hi Wes, I have a PH10T and TP200. I usually use a 2 x 20 stylus, but occasionally have to "reach out" a ways and then go to a 3 x 50 and a 50mm extension. I have low, medium, and high force pucks. For bores normal to the y axis, I have to use high force pucks with the long stylii, because with my low force puck, my vertical hits do not register right.

Depending on the tolerance I change how many hits I take, more hits for tighter tolerance up to 12 at times. Bore sizes range from .5" up to around 6", tolerances anywhere from +/-.005 to as tight as +/-.0002.

Most of what I do has to be reported in terms of true position, so it would be nice to be able to edit my actual measured value vs what the machine measured for my reports. MY TOP tolerances can be as tight as .0003"

Thanks again,

Jay

[BOB PARSONS]

Skip Basic, A Small Advanced Class Where The Instructor Can Taylor
To Your Specific Needs Is Always The Best Way To Go.

[Chikoo]

Take the advance class but not all the training classes are same. I would like to suggest you Crescent Gage near Dallas, Texas. They are well organized and has highly trained instructor.
I had completed several PC-DMIS classes in Wixom, MI and Crescent Gage Texas.
I felt Wixom, MI classes are nothing but joke.

[Wes Cisco]

Hi Wes, I have a PH10T and TP200. I usually use a 2 x 20 stylus, but occasionally have to "reach out" a ways and then go to a 3 x 50 and a 50mm extension. I have low, medium, and high force pucks. For bores normal to the y axis, I have to use high force pucks with the long stylii, because with my low force puck, my vertical hits do not register right.

Depending on the tolerance I change how many hits I take, more hits for tighter tolerance up to 12 at times. Bore sizes range from .5" up to around 6", tolerances anywhere from +/-.005 to as tight as +/-.0002.

Most of what I do has to be reported in terms of true position, so it would be nice to be able to edit my actual measured value vs what the machine measured for my reports. MY TOP tolerances can be as tight as .0003"

Thanks again,

Jay

When your machine was last "calibrated", they put a sticker on it. That sticker should note the VA, (volumetric accuracy). For my Xcel 9-15-9 it is .00037" which is something I point out to the muckety mucks whenever they give me things with tolerances in the lower ranges of what you listed. I do try to check .0003" tp, but I also note the VA of the machine in my report.
If you look in the help menus you will find descriptions of the different algorythems the software can use to calculate the diameter of the bore from the individual hits you took. Obviously with any of the formulas the more the hits the closer the result, but you will never beat the VA. Just some FYI. HTH
As for putting your measured values from mics or bore gages into your report, you can do it with user inputs and variables, but you should note that you are doing so in the report.

[bw_bob]

The basic class makes you confident enough to make you dangerous. In reading you post I don't think you would get any advantage taking a class were you know what they are talking about. In your case the basic class is kinda a see spot run. I would take the advanced.

[dfiola66]

If you can convince your company to ante up, have a guy come in-house from B&S for a week if you can swing it or 3 days minimum. This way, they can train you on YOUR stuff on YOUR machine one on one. We bargin'd for that when we purchased the machine and put the training "included" towards an in-house choice. The shop was instructed to leave me alone and it was the best scenario, bar none.

[Wes Cisco]

WDS

[BOB PARSONS]

Dave Is Right, That Is The Best Possible Scenario, We Have Done It W/ Good Results.